Jim Immel joins us on the podcast this week to talk about being a middle manager. It can be outright difficult to know exactly how to support your team when you are new to a managerial position, but it can also be incredibly rewarding. Listen in here!

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Transcription below (typos may occur...)
Jim: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] When I was 30 years old, there was a manager that we always said, he really thinks about what have you done lately? Cause it's almost like what you did 10 years ago really didn't matter, but what have you done lately? And the joke became he's actually, he's so forward focused.

It's he doesn't even care what you've done lately. What are you doing tomorrow? And that's the world we're living in. What are you doing tomorrow? What are you doing tomorrow? And What I believe is very effective is take a few minutes and look back before you go forward. Keerstyn: [00:00:58] 

welcome to the podcast, Jim. I am really [00:01:00] excited that you're here today to talk a little bit about what you do and who you are and how you help people in the past and the present. do you want to just give us a brief, intro of who you are, what you do and then what your mission 

Jim: [00:01:10] is?

Yes. Thank you. what I do today is I'd love to develop those who influence others. How I got here has been a long journey. I came out of college. First job was selling insurance right away. And so I was using what I like to call the people's skills right away. Being able to connect with, Prospects clients and be able to help them meet their goals and objectives.

And over the last 40 years, my business has evolved, but it's always been the same. It's been connecting with people and helping them get what they want. And so what I do today, the last 21 years, I've been introduced as a business coach and primarily working with. small, medium sized businesses that believe that they can get better.

And many [00:02:00] of my clients are looking for how do I transition the business to the people who have helped me build this business? So I get introduced, via succession planning, helping people be able to transition their business to others. 

Keerstyn: [00:02:15] Yeah, absolutely. That's really interesting, especially because that transition is oftentimes the younger people, those middle managers that are now meeting the rise up into the executive roles or those type of seats as C-suites spots, what are, what's some advice that you would give those people when they're in that transition phase?

Jim: [00:02:37] it's interesting, there's, when you take a look at the generations and then who is rising up to be leaders, first of all, I look at people in three different ways and they can be all three, but, there's leadership, leading people, there's managing a lot of people are introduced as managers and what they do is they manage processes and.

[00:03:00] Procedures and goals, but really at the end of the day, if you're a good manager, you're also a good leader. You're influencing others and encouraging them to grow, take on more. And then there are top performers. There are people, that are just really good at what they do. And you want to put them in that playground where they're able to do what they do, not necessarily managing other people, but what's interesting is.

Everybody in a small, medium sized business is leading. you show up with a, an attitude every day. You show up with positive or negative emotion, and we all lead by example, people pay attention. And so I just really like to approach it as everybody is in leadership. It's what kind of leadership are you providing?

but the managers, what's very interesting in my practice today and I've shared this with other business coaches, I'm in a network with some other people and I'm [00:04:00] calling it the missing generation because 2008, 2009, a lot of people who would be in those. Upper management positions, went to bigger companies and that's what the security was.

And I'm calling it the missing generation because it's like the upper fifties are transitioning to the 30, 35 year old, sometimes 38. And there's a missing generation, which is a great opportunity for a lot of young people and to work on their skills and leadership abilities. And, there's another generation coming up and I've talked to other people about is a lot of people in their twenties and early thirties that are actually providing, I like to call it leadership from within they're impacting and influencing the company just by their, what if we did this?

Have we ever thought about this? Just the passion that they have as [00:05:00] they approach their work. And so there are a lot of talented young people, when I'm coaching, the business owners are saying, are you paying attention to this person? 

Keerstyn: [00:05:09] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What is missing in those? I guess you call it the missing generation.

Is there something that's missing that, we could see in this younger generation that we could help them coach them to, 

Jim: [00:05:23] to stair-step real quick and jump over a couple of steps. Yeah. again, I have a practice, I'm not. Coach and a bunch of other coaches, I have a practice, but in my practice, there are a lot of people that have ended up in that. They're now 55 where they're now 50 years old and they were in their prime getting ready to step up.

And then 2008, 2009 came along. And what I'm saying is that there are a lot of people that are staying safe. In those roles, we've always done it this way. No, we tried that back 10 years ago. [00:06:00] there's a little bit of, what I like to call a fixed mindset. There's a book called mindset by Carol Dweck, which is a.

Awesome book for anybody to read. and it talks about the difference between growth and fixed mindsets. And there honestly, there are a lot of people that have that fixed mindset who have found themselves into management roles and they're being safe today. The world is changing fast and there are a lot of creative people, innovative people that your business is competing with.

and so I really try to encourage my clients that are in leadership and management roles to bring that out, get that innovation out, let them know that, it's OK to, strategically go into a new idea. the managers now can help them by asking them questions to develop their critical thinking skills, because there's a.

There's a little bit of a paradox. These people have all this talent, but they've grown up with Google. And 10 [00:07:00] years ago, Google is not a search engine. It's an answer engine. And There's a, one of the things in a lot of my projects, the business owners are saying, how help this youth help this talent develop critical thinking skills.

And so just get into that state of wonderment of what if, I wonder if, and, have the courage to keep moving forward, but that's a big part of the managers. You will influence how much of that you get out of people, or you will. stifle that type of creativity. And what's really interesting is if you don't connect with them, if you don't really know the people you're leading.

And if you're just more about what are we going to do today, and here's the process, boom. If there's a low connection, but there's a high challenge in what they're doing. People can get frustrated. And so it, for the people listening, if you just think about these four [00:08:00] quadrants, if you go from low connection to high connection on the horizontal and then the vertical, if you go to low challenge, high challenge, What we always won is that upper right hand quadrant, which is high connection in high challenge.

The top performers want to be engaged. They do not want to be bored. What happens to a lot of first job people, they get out of college, they get hired, and that there's a low connection with a manager. Maybe the manager has too many people. There's a low challenge because they don't have time to really prepare you for giving you a challenge.

Top performers don't stay in that quarter. That's the board. I am board quadrant when it's low connection, low challenge, their resume is getting updated far quicker than they want. but if it's a low connection in a high challenge, that's where frustration comes [00:09:00] in.

And then the high connection, but a low challenge. they're just, they're just gonna get bored after a while they liked the connection. They'll stay longer at the same point in time. How am I advancing? Where am I going? I have these dreams and these goals. And so here in the Midwest, one of the biggest things that I end up coaching the managers is to provide a.

More of a challenge to people because they're talented and how do you do it? And so I don't know if this happens throughout the country, but definitely in the Midwest. Many of us grew up saying don't be pushy. grandma and mom taught us that. And there's a disconnect in the mind of, I'm pushing them too much.

Yeah, really? What it's about is the manager many times gets uncomfortable making people uncomfortable. let me [00:10:00] ask you a question. When have you grown when you were challenged or have you grown when you were comfortable? 

Keerstyn: [00:10:06] When I was challenged and on the foreseen circumstances.

Absolutely. I would agree with you there. 

Jim: [00:10:15] Yeah. Yeah. it's interesting is this is that 10 years ago I went to a meeting and the speaker says, write down the three times that, you grew the most, and this was before lunch break. So people are thinking about it. And then after lunch, he says, find the three times when you were challenged, the most.

And nobody had to think about it because there, the answer was already there. And so I'm encouraging a lot of, the managers and business owners to build a better connection. And by the way, some people just aren't naturally wired to build a better connection because it's just, they're facts driven there.

They see the goal, there, their blind spot is they see what has to [00:11:00] happen. So clearly they think it's obvious to other people and it's not. And building a connection, take time, especially early on. When you starting to manage and somebody else's directly reporting to you get to know them. I have way too many stories where I have a 15 minute meeting with somebody and I ended up knowing more than about them than the manager who's been managing them for the last time.

Yeah. There's curiosity. And a few questions. You haven't talked about their hobbies, getting them to talk about 

Keerstyn: [00:11:38] things. 

Jim: [00:11:39] Yeah. 

Keerstyn: [00:11:40] Absolutely. Some people would say that, their personal life is almost going into their professional life. What are your thoughts on how that moves is starting to impact organizations, especially because of this work from home thing.

a few other different circumstances in the recent years. what are your thoughts on 

Jim: [00:11:57] that? there's this work [00:12:00] from home thing is, has been very interesting, it's really interesting is talking to a few people, but at your age is when they're really loving what they do, because a lot of people can disconnect and reconnect pretty quickly.

Many of them will say, when I'm really busy and I've got things going on at home, I'm at work thinking, I need to get something done at home. And then when I'm at home, I know I got some, get some things done at work, so they could about at home. So there's a home and work thing. We've always had to deal with it.

It's just now physically it's different. and, it's really about, Time management, the managing of your energy, making sure that you're as effective and efficient as possible. And that's really where I think a lot of the managers can help is to help people understand, that a little bit of planning.

Goes a long way. And what's great about your [00:13:00] software and not actually using them myself, but just reviewing it. Is there so much there that your managers can leverage because you're keeping the main thing, you're not getting, here's your 33 items on your to do list, which, by the way, Only 20% of it ever gets done, but 33 items on it.

but it helps you keep the main thing. And I think it's, how you manage your energy and your effort, in eliminating the distractions definitely helps. 

Keerstyn: [00:13:36] Yeah, absolutely. What would you tell a middle manager who is trying to really, focus their employee and help them grow, but.

I was working from home and a few new changes have happened in the past few months. What would be one piece of advice that you would give them in that state? 

Jim: [00:13:54] So I'll blend this answer in with what I think is a standard regardless. [00:14:00] it's interesting.  we're always in, what are we doing next?

And, it's. When I was 30 years old, there was a manager that we always said, he really thinks about what have you done lately? Cause it's almost like what you did 10 years ago really didn't matter, but what have you done lately? And the joke became he's actually, he's so forward focused.

It's he doesn't even care what you've done lately. What are you doing tomorrow? And that's the world we're living in. What are you doing tomorrow? What are you doing tomorrow? And What I believe is very effective is take a few minutes and look back before you go forward. so Kiersten, if I was to ask you just to imagine where you were a year ago, 12 months before COVID and COVID didn't even exist, it wasn't even on our map.

And by the way, weren't those grades at times, 12 months and you're thinking about where you are now. If I were to ask you the question during that 12 months [00:15:00] between now and then as you look back. What would you say are the three things that you've learned about yourself and you've learned about how you can impact others?

where have you grown in the last year? 

Keerstyn: [00:15:12] Yeah, absolutely. I definitely had a job transition. I, move a, yeah, I've been in different circumstances that I didn't think I would be in. And, I think that's been a big growth. Perspective, but then yeah, like a good way to look back and think about what you have grown.

Jim: [00:15:32] But and through this COVID thing, that's one of the questions that I've been asking a lot of business owner is who's surprising you, who is, who are you really starting to wetness where here's what I say, where other people are reaching out to them and asking their advice. And in fact, even improving because they are reaching out to this person or that person.

And this is where I'm coming up with the people in the twenties, [00:16:00] because technology is a big part of this. They're much more comfortable, but it has been huge. The number of clients who have just mentioned about how 50, 55 year old people are getting mentored by people in their twenties and their thirties.

And so what is leadership? It's influencing others. and so looking back to why I asked that question, Kiersten is because you know how far you've come in the last year. So what I've done is I've now set you up to get you to believe in yourself, who talks to you more than anybody else. Yourself.

Keerstyn: [00:16:43] Yeah, 

Jim: [00:16:44] you do. We all do. We're all thinking, right? What if so, if I'm going to influence you to think about the future, go, I call this, go back before you go forward. It's also a great way to very early on. [00:17:00] If you were to have a new direct report and you want to build a connection, what are you connecting to?

who have they been led by in the past? If, even if it's their first job out of college, they've been managed by other people called mom and dad, coaches, 

Keerstyn: [00:17:18] grandma 

Jim: [00:17:20] professors. yeah. w who was your, who, what was your favorite class and why? And usually it comes down to the professor or whatever.

So you go back before you go forward. It's also a great way to build a connection. A real connection, instead of saying, what's your favorite color? it's connecting with people. And then now what I would do is do you believe you just went through some things in the last 12 months that were huge.

So it may not be possible to go through that much growth next year. That's those were back on the list. [00:18:00] But you can think bigger because you know how far you've come. Most people when they're thinking about the future are limiting themselves because we don't see the future, but we know the past.

And so now I've built a connection with you. And even if I'm in the Midwest, I can challenge you just so now, imagine it's 12 months from now and I ask you the same question. And what are those three biggest areas of growth? What were the biggest challenges? So some people will say, I want the growth, but I don't want the challenge.

so it's okay. But that would be a good question for you to consider, now they know how far you've gotten in the past. Is that helpful to you to think about the future? 

Keerstyn: [00:18:48] Yeah. 

Jim: [00:18:50] Yeah, and it's a great way to build a connection very early on. And again, with, your software and you're starting to plug things in, and [00:19:00] that is, so it's also an interesting with the people in their twenties and early thirties.

I asked him what they think about the word accountability. And many of them don't have a real good feel for it because a lot of times they've been managed in the past and accountability meant blame, or it meant, it's somebody, the Monday quarterback looking at the, in the background. So a lot of the middle managers I've been working with is just ask this question.

How do you want to keep score Kiersten? How do you want to keep score? Cause you're I already know you're a growth oriented person you want to keep score. what's interesting is some people have a negative reaction to the word accountability. What's interesting is how many businesses they want to have a culture of winning of competition of outperforming their competition.

They want to keep score, on the weekends, watching sports, they're keeping [00:20:00] score. And that's really what accountability is. And I think that's really what you can keep score of, is using your software. 

Keerstyn: [00:20:07] Yeah, absolutely. I really like how you said that too, especially because.

Oftentimes we have metrics that don't really have a whole lot of meaning behind them, but when you really do plug into metrics that actually give you a score that's valuable and consistent. And, w you'll be able to see that's huge and extremely valuable. And I think that's. A lot of the time over looks or, we're measuring things that aren't as valuable as what we, would hope they'd be able to think that they would be.

And I, yeah, I totally agree with you there, for sure. 

Jim: [00:20:41] So as you're managing and leading people, is it important that they keep that they set the goals that they establish how you're going to keep score? And it is because they're taking the ownership of that. So when you have a tough time finding a metric, here's a [00:21:00] question that you can ask of the person in this world.

Many times lead to a metric. Kiersten. This is really, it's going to be difficult to measure this. What is the question I can ask you when we meet next month? What is the question? I can ask you to understand how much progress you're making on this. Yeah. So when I asked you to come up with the question, you're owning it and many times it actually will lead you to something you can keep score.

Yeah, 

Keerstyn: [00:21:37] I like that a lot, especially cause it's consistent. And, they know what's coming and they know what the answer will be hopefully by the next month, cross your fingers and maybe they don't know the full question or the full answer either, but that's an area of growth and coaching your team members.

And yeah, I really liked that. That's a great idea. 

Jim: [00:21:57] and you can always give them a heads up that I'm looking forward [00:22:00] to asking you this question three days for whatever would we be? 

Keerstyn: [00:22:04] Yeah, absolutely 

Jim: [00:22:06] focus on that. 

the 80 20 rule works in so many areas, but that's why those monthly goals, 80% of that work on that goal will get done in the last 20% of today's.

 but if they know how to keep score and they know how to win, and they know that's what you're looking for here. Here's something else that I think your managers could benefit from. Is when they meet that goal, we can say, great, what's next. like the guy I was kidding about what have you done lately?

What are you doing tomorrow? but lean in show appreciation, but when you show appreciation, if I say, thank you. you might forget even later today, because look at how much information comes at you every single day. And so the whirlwind of the day really dilutes, that feeling of I've been appreciated because [00:23:00] there's always something else going on when your managers are showing appreciation.

If they can think of one or two things that they impact because of it. Even if it's impacting the next person in line to work on the project, you are giving this person a gift. They're not going to start it from being behind. They've got a few days early that they're going to be able to start on their part of the project.

I want to thank you for that. That's good teamwork. You can find the impact and usually it takes 10. 20 seconds at most to include the impact. I love the word impact by the way, because it's an impactful, I'm sorry. It's, I use that a lot more than it affects this, that affects that I like to use impact.

Keerstyn: [00:23:46] Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't have to agree with you there too. And it makes people feel more valued as well. are they ranked on a deeper level? Absolutely. And appreciation on a deeper level for sure. 

Jim: [00:23:58] And so [00:24:00] if it's a big thing, that's obvious to everybody about what the impact is. I think he got a lot of juice out of finding something small because how you're paying attention to the small stuff and your people know you're paying attention to the small stuff that, this is going to impact so-and-so and, You know that person who just completed the project is going well.

Yeah, I guess it does, so it doesn't have to be a big thing. In fact, I would argue that sometimes the smaller things make a bigger difference. 

Keerstyn: [00:24:31] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I would have to agree with you there as well. Cause, yeah, I think the smaller things. Make it feel like the bigger things are valuable, but those smaller things are just as valuable if not more valuable because they really show the hard work and dedication behind the big things that have come.

yeah, absolutely. 

Jim: [00:24:53] go ahead. 

Keerstyn: [00:24:54] Go ahead. All right. 

Jim: [00:24:56] back to the mindset, the growth mindset versus [00:25:00] fixed part of what's in that book is a lot of times people who are really smart, And through high school, people are telling them how smart they are and then once they get challenged and they get a B plus for being minus they're thinking they might, that's smart.

have I reached my limit? the growth mindset is don't talk to people about how smart they are or how great this looks. Talk to them about the effort that they put in. Here's what I know is that you had to put in the effort, this is something that was beyond my expectations and I appreciate the effort that you've put into it.

how did, and I might even get curious and say, how did you prepare for this? How did you plan for this? What did you do? again, connection show that you care. Yeah, 

Keerstyn: [00:25:48] absolutely. Absolutely. It takes much more effort for some people than others. And I think that's a really appropriate way of saying that, especially if you are a manager with a new employee or, have a few more direct [00:26:00] reports than before it's not everyone's on the same playing field.

and oftentimes our jobs and have different things that we have to do. And, Sally might have to put in so much effort than Sue, but Sally's outcome is not as great as Sue, but really who and not to compare, but to, provide some emphasis on how grateful we are of their work and how they're continuing their growth and how they're investing in themselves.

Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jim: [00:26:30] Yeah. Just listening to you there reminded me that, Every think about this, every employee has their own brand, you know who to go to, who's going to get it done. Who's dependable who might do it at the last minute. we start to develop this brand and managing UFOs talent, or even somebody, in the final years of their career.

What is their brand, what's the impact they're there [00:27:00] that they're making. A lot of employees have never looked at that. and, for the people that are being led that are towards the end of their career, what's your career captain experience gonna look like, how are you going to transition some of this wisdom to others?

and then. Talk to them about witnessing them, transitioning wisdom to others and they impact, just keep feeding them to encourage them to do more. a lot of it is around effort. it's interesting. I did a lot of coaching in sports, not just, in business and there were kids I could. Show up and put in the effort. They just had a lot of natural talent. And then a few years later they're being passed by, 

Keerstyn: [00:27:43] by 

Jim: [00:27:43] the runes I put in the effort and it happens in business too.

So it's, that's what the growth mindset is about. And also, being able to take risk and understanding, John Maxwell has a title of a [00:28:00] book, sometimes we. When sometimes we've learned, so looking at what did we learn, is a very valuable and to reflect on as individuals.

Yeah. Reflective learning is a good teacher. 

Keerstyn: [00:28:19] Yeah, absolutely. And it definitely helps that growth mindset even more. And, a lot of us, you to really take in all of the learnings rather than just, applying them in the short term memory box, 

and get a longterm concept that we actually embrace. And, yeah.

Of success behind. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Jim: [00:28:39] one of my favorite clients, when I'm talking about, sometimes we win. Sometimes we learn and something happened in his business and he looked at me and he says, I just want it to be public tuition. I don't want it to be private tuition know it's you still have to manage people.

You still have to encourage in really with the critical thinking skills. I think one of the. [00:29:00] Easiest tips for your managers to use is when people come to you with questions, stop being Google, stop, giving them the answer, ask them what do you think that three or four best options are when you think about what do you think?

The three of us options are? And when I learned this, I thought, you gotta start with the end in mind. what does success look like? But what's interesting when you ask that question, they'll tell you about what they're thinking about. And then you can just say, let's think about that. The end game, a manager and that's now executed.

What are those three biggest benefits that we're going to get out of this? 

Keerstyn: [00:29:47] Yeah. 

Jim: [00:29:49] And then go back. It's interesting. Then you go back again and say, what are your options? They might change. Yeah. So what you're doing there is you're [00:30:00] coaching them and teaching them, but you're also understanding where they are from a thinking standpoint.

And then still I call this day off the solution. Don't give them the answer again. Just say, let's get together next week. And these are three good options and sell me on which one you think is best. Have them tell you, let them think about it. Don't want them just Google. 

Keerstyn: [00:30:28] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really valuable thing.

And, I think that we often forget that it's sometimes in our minds easier to just say here's the answer. I go on with your day. but oftentimes when we're investing in people and really coaching them, we want to, make sure that they're thinking and they're putting their concepts and ideas behind their thoughts and their goals and their actions.

because then it actually makes it more influential too and helps them [00:31:00] really embrace it and get excited about it and, want to continue to do better for sure. 

Jim: [00:31:05] Yeah. it's interesting. And the toughest thing for me to in my coaching is what I'm going to share with you now, because when I asked people, what do you think is best?

And you can feel their passion cause they're selling me on it. and so you're passionate about it and you've got the plan and here I am on the other side and I want to add something so bad. But am I really making it about me because if they're passionate about it, so I've just made this up, but it's what I believe.

It's the lowest common denominator between how good the plan is and the level of passion, because they own it. If I had something, did I just move it from their idea to my idea. And so their passion might go from 90 down to 70%. [00:32:00] But the plan was an 85. I just moved it from 85 plan down to a 70, because I took away that passion.

So many times I'm sitting there going perfect. How do you see getting started? What are you going to do? This is exciting. I just try to build them up and get them to, be excited about executing it because when they're passionate, think about things that you've done. When you're passionate about it, you run into a roadblock.

What do you do? Figure it out. 

Keerstyn: [00:32:29] Get through it. Yeah, 

Jim: [00:32:30] absolutely. So quick, quit making it about you sometimes. And it is cause I've shared this with so many people. People tell me, boy, that is tough. they're setting their good man. I've got an idea, but it's you're just encouraging them. You are a better leader and manager.

And if you're a leader, you give credit to others, you take responsibility. Okay. So when you make it that when you add something, [00:33:00] are you really making it about you? Are you trying to get the credit shift and that's going to limit your growth? It's going to limit your ability to grow within an organization and impact others.

When you give you get more back, people understand it. 

Keerstyn: [00:33:17] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely awesome. Jim. thanks for sharing that with us. I think that was really valuable, especially for managers to put in to their own, ideas. Yeah. Not necessarily taking away their passion or their employee's passion for something that, and making it their thing instead of our thing.

So 

Jim: [00:33:36] absolutely. So Marshall Goldsmith, who's written quite a few books. It's a, I'll give him credit because it's, just staying off the solution. and, I've witnessed it now since I learned it from him. And I came up with the lowest common denominator thing, because I think it's true, I'll be the first to.

To admit that I've made it about [00:34:00] me, share an idea that they, okay, why did they do it, in the whole back, but when you're both passionate and you're focused on the same mission, people do want that energy to come from you too. So I don't want. That to be dismissed, but you want, I don't want to overrun them with your energy and your passion because it's, again, the passion paradox you can make people feel like it's about you when you overrun them with your passion.

Okay. So trying to manage that as well. That's a coaching tip. I give a lot of newer, younger managers. Awesome. 

Keerstyn: [00:34:37] Yeah. I would have to agree with you there. Energy is a valuable thing and a very positive thing and really productive. but you're right. Passion can be overtaken and misconstrued. Absolutely.

Awesome. Okay. Thanks for sharing with us, Jim. This has been really awesome and I'm really. Happy that we got a chance to have a conversation about middle managers and how they can continue [00:35:00] to impact others in their organizations. If people want to reach out to you, what is a good, where is a good place to do that?

and how can it, 

Jim: [00:35:09] yeah, just, email, Jim at I M E L. Associates all spelled out Jim and Emily associates.com. 

Keerstyn: [00:35:19] Awesome and sweet. Do you have any, advice for middle managers or leaders alike on how to be the best leader and manager? They can be? 

Jim: [00:35:32] So here's one thing I keep in the back of my mind all the time.

It's a phrase that my dad didn't use often, but I remember him using it and care should be a verb. So people should know that you care, they should witness it. And I think some of the tips that I shared with you today is really about caring by not giving them the answers and being able to connect early by asking questions, going deep. [00:36:00]

it's interesting. one of the people I'm coaching now, when I first met her, she talked about I'm a little tired today because we have baseball all weekend and that was hot out and that type of thing. And so what did I do for the first 15 minutes is I got her to talk to me about her kids and the baseball and her husband growing up, playing baseball and all sorts of things.

But I learned so much about her through that process. Immediately, I'm coaching her. What's very interesting is at my age, a lot of times people think there's this big difference between millennials, by the way. I don't believe a lot of what is it? yeah. Yeah. When you invest sometime like I do, that is not an issue when you're investing some time upfront.

Yeah. And, they call it the experience [00:37:00] bias because I'm not experiencing what they experienced, just imagine the technology you have now versus when I was your age. I was showing off a calculator, No, it was, It was totally different, but when you show you care and you connect there isn't this difference.

I've never had a problem with helping coach the youth. 

Keerstyn: [00:37:24] Awesome. thank you so much, Jim, for, having a conversation today and, really helping us learn how to invest in our people and how to invest in ourselves and our passions. 

Jim: [00:37:34] Okay, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity Keerstyn. 

Keerstyn: [00:37:38] Yeah, for sure.