Picking your culture with Brett Putter

This week on the podcast we have Brett Putter. Brett chats with me about all things culture. He is the CEO of Culture Gene and has a large emphasis on making sure people fit in the culture their company creates. It was a great conversation about what this looks like, the best practices of culture, and what to look for when joining a company, or changing your culture from the leadership perspective. He also talks about his books that focus on making culture unique and valuable.
This week on the podcast we have Brett Putter. Brett chats with me about all things culture. He is the CEO of Culture Gene and has a large emphasis on making sure people fit in the culture their company creates. It was a great conversation about what this looks like, the best practices of culture, and what to look for when joining a company, or changing your culture from the leadership perspective. He also talks about his books that focus on making culture unique and valuable. Click here for the link.

Find Brett on his website Culture Gene or email him at brett@culturegene.ai

Full transcription below (May contain typos...):
[00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] But you couldn't really take one. They can copy it because that would be copying somebody else's culture and that doesn't work like that. You can't copy another company's culture. Your culture is unique to you.  
Keerstyn: [00:00:11] Welcome to the podcast, Brett. I am really excited that you're here today. Can you just tell us a bit more about how you got involved in it work and then what you do now?
To really change the world that 
NA: [00:00:21] we live in today. 
Brett: [00:00:23] Yeah, sure. Thanks, Kristen. It's great to be involved. And thanks for having me. I prior to setting up culture, Jean, I ran an executive search firm for 16 years based out of London and I worked with high growth, early stage companies. And I was lucky enough about five years ago now to work with three companies almost in a row where the leaders had a very clear understanding of the culture of the company.
And so I was asked to find candidates that had specific skills, experiences, et cetera, et cetera. But also I was asked to find candidates [00:01:00] that matched the values of the company. And this was a much harder search to do, but the process and the interviews, and then the resulting impact that the hand the candidates had on the companies was like a wow moment for me.
There was just that much better, and that's where I started really digging deep into company culture. And a year later I started culture, Jean. I interviewed had to speak to 500 companies to interview just over 50 CEOs of high growth companies that had done a very good job of embedding their culture.
I've written two books on the subject now and yeah, we've got a software driven process that we run with companies to help them define embed and manage their culture. 
Keerstyn: [00:01:40] Yeah. So I guess one of my first questions would be where was like, what differentiates really good culture from like mediocre culture.
Obviously everyone can say that they have good culture and actually most companies do. But what does that almost defining line of? This is an amazing culture and companies are really thriving from it too. This is a [00:02:00] mediocre culture and they can obviously 
NA: [00:02:01] do better. 
Brett: [00:02:04] Okay. So there's only the only time.
A good or bad culture is a relevant question is in relation to me or you would, I enjoy working there or not, but within a company, there's no such thing as a good culture. There is only a functional or a dysfunctional culture, a strong or a weak culture. So a strong culture may not be the kind of company I would want to work in.
So for example, the mafia. Have a very strong culture and I wouldn't want to work in it. So it's not good for me, but it is still a very strong, functional culture. Scientology has a strong culture, but I wouldn't want to work in that environment either. So the way to look at culture is it strong and functional?
And what strong means is it's clearly defined it's everybody loves it. It's really embedded into the leadership team, the general [00:03:00] team, the functions and processes of the business and a functional culture means that the way we do things actually accelerates the business. Rather than decelerates the business.
So an example of a dysfunctional culture might be a company where there is a lot of politicking going on and the politics ends up slowing the company down because it's more about me, the individual versus the company. So you can have a strong, dysfunctional culture. Or a weak functional culture and a mix of those.
So my, from my experience that the stronger the culture, the more the leadership team and the CEO and work on it, focus on it. They embed it, they treat it like a business function and the weaker, dysfunctional cultures, the CEOs leave it to develop by default and don't rarely treat it respected in any way.
Keerstyn: [00:03:58] Yeah. That's [00:04:00] thank you for that differential or differentiation. I think that's really good to understand because oftentimes people say I want to be part of a great culture and that's obviously we can't just say you want to be part of a great culture. You need to look more in depth about it. So yeah, I guess what are some of those things that people should be looking for when they're looking for.
For jobs, like how did they see their own personal, like what they want in a culture and how do they define that? And how do they look for that in a company? Just like you have done with multiple 
NA: [00:04:31] companies in the past. 
Brett: [00:04:33] Yeah. So this actually isn't is is not an easy question to answer, really.
Especially if you're a candidate, because most candidates haven't actually gone through the process of really defining their values. They feel that this may be good or not. And frankly, most companies will have done some of the superficial stuff around the values and mission and vision, but they don't embed it.
But if I was interviewing for a position now I would be asking [00:05:00] these companies, tell me about. Your culture. And I would ask each individual, I interviewed with these questions in exactly the same way and look for consistency. So I'd say, describe your culture. Tell me why you work at this company. If you what's the one thing you could change, if you could change anything in this company and why.
Okay. All your values and mission and vision lived in the company. And the reality is the person you are, who's interviewing you. The person you're talking to will, will be honest in the most cases with you, because they don't want you to join the company. And then you realize they lied. So you can ask these questions.
Maybe not like pretty harmless questions, unless of course the company doesn't have a very strong culture and you can then dig a little bit deeper by asking each person  these questions. What I would do now particularly is I'd be asking, what are you [00:06:00] doing around transitioning to remote work or hybrid work?
What are your communication tools look like and how synchronous versus asynchronous is your communication? What does the documentation look like? What are your processes defined? I would be going into this sort of level of detail because if a company isn't transitioning to a hybrid or remote environment they will not have these in place.
Which means that it's much harder for me to do my job if I want to work remotely some of the time or all of the time. And so companies now that are building strong cultures for hybrid environments are the ones who are going to be able to attract the best talent. It used to be campuses and three food and et cetera, et cetera.
Now it's going to be your culture. Tell me how your is in getting enabled me to work. 
Keerstyn: [00:06:59] Yeah. Thank [00:07:00] you for that. That's really helpful. And those are solid questions to be asking during those kinda interviews. So my question to you is how do companies who are obviously, we've all been in this remote workspace for a year now give or take a year, which has been crazy.
But companies are really still struggling to do remote work well, and we've seen that time and timeout It's it's not completely obvious at times, but there are times where you sit back and you think, wow, this could have been done much better. Had we been on a campus or had we been in the workspace?
So what would you say to these CEOs or leadership roles that are still trying to make the remote or hybrid per se? A solid create a solid culture in this because it's just extremely difficult to be able to relate to the employees, be able to make sure everyone's on the same page.
That's extremely difficult when you have to do it over a zoom call. So how, what are some advice or some takeaways that you would give these [00:08:00] people to make sure that they're starting to move 
NA: [00:08:02] in the right direction? 
Brett: [00:08:04] So I my software, I started building my software about 18 months ago and the software was designed for distributed teams or remote workers.
And so about 12 months ago, I started studying these companies just before the pandemic hit actually. So about 13 months now. And I realized that there are certain things that remote companies do. Over and above and over index on, in comparison to typically office space environments. And the reason for that, and the reason for this need to do that is because they didn't have an office to rely on.
A lot of leaders became lazy about their culture or were lazy about their culture because they didn't have to really do that much about it because the office did it for them. The Osmo, SIS, the informal communication, the bumping into people in the [00:09:00] stairwell, the meeting, having coffee, having drinks afterwards, that kind of environment helped your culture develop.
And that culture which was pre COVID is now has now been. Obliterated and turned into a fully remote culture which most people are frankly struggling with, but not realizing that yet because we have what I call productivity and the culture is going to change again. When companies go back to hybrid and leaders are thinking that they can run a business, a hybrid business in the same way.
And it's much harder to run a hybrid business. So the nine best practices that I've found for that remote work companies really over-index on are that they are deliberate about their culture because they have to be, they focus on communication and building a communication architecture. They both structure into it into their environment.
They are very aware of people's wellbeing. They define all processes, even micro processes, [00:10:00] and they make them very apparent. They are anal about documentation. They are very deliberate about adapting, their recruitment process and their onboarding process. They lead through trust and they lead based on outcomes and results.
And these are really the fundamentals of where a business that was pre COVID in an office. The leadership team has to be thinking about these pillars. 
NA: [00:10:32] Yeah. 
Keerstyn: [00:10:33] Thank you for sharing those that's those pillars that are really interesting. And I completely agree with them. There's just a lot. And it might be like, obviously it's overwhelming to have people be remote to not se an end in sight, although you could say we are.
But yeah, I think those are really important. So my question to you is how do leadership decide what's the most important out of those or how do we take a step in the right direction versus trying to tackle the [00:11:00] entire, a 
NA: [00:11:00] monster type of 
Brett: [00:11:02] thing? It's a lot. It is a lot of work. But what I do with my clients is we actually do a review of.
Those nine best practices inside the company. So what are we doing on documentation? What percentage of our processes are defined? How are we doing on social connection? What's happening now is people are spending a lot of time on zoom. And the last thing that we want to do is do another call on that zoom.
So the reason for that is because we're doing too much synchronous work and our communication architecture is not designed correctly. But I just, I said, I suggest you look at your organization to go on these missions and best practices, where are we? And in most cases, there is a, an area that a couple of areas that companies are doing okay on.
And most other areas, people, companies are struggling and I will make it. What I typically do is I make it the responsibility of the entire organization to start to solve for this as not just the leadership team. But it's the organization. And for example, if you want ideas around social [00:12:00] connection, because the quizzes you're doing and no longer working or the, know, the.
Ideas around drinks on Friday. And everybody's a little bit burnt out by that form. Again, get a group of people who are interested in that form committee and get them to start working with the rest of the team, get them to source ideas and come up with ideas. This is make it the responsibility the leadership team, if they're going to be ultimately they are.
But if they're going to drive ideas for this and they don't work, then the team are going to cross their arms and go. No, we're not interested. Cause you're the leaders and you should know, versus if it's the team responsible, then people will work with the rest of the team. So I recommend setting up a squad or a committee to help solve some of these 
NA: [00:12:41] issues.
Keerstyn: [00:12:42] Yeah, I think that you bring up a really good point about that when I, and I've seen time after time that employees really aren't excited about something. If it's coming from leadership and they haven't been talked to or consult with, and then there's just a lack of communication and a lack of.
Excitement around [00:13:00] something versus if the leadership team goes directly to them, I believe Toyota made this a thing at one point. But basically it's going and talking to the actual people, the lowest people in the totem pole and saying, Hey, what do you value? What, how do you, how does this work? How can we make this better for you?
So I think that you bring up a really good point about that. So my question to you is what is the majority of what people struggle with this? Like obviously each company is different, but what are like the top three things that you have seen time after time that people are obviously struggling with?
So maybe some of our podcast, guests are not guests. Listeners are saying, wow, I actually am really not doing well in this department. What are those top three that the majority of companies really do 
NA: [00:13:43] struggle 
Brett: [00:13:43] with. So most companies ready? You can see the haze on the back of their neck.
Stand up. When I talk about documentation, because the idea of documented, documenting something and then for it to go, and what it typically happens with documentation is somebody writes something and then it dies in a folder somewhere. [00:14:00] And nobody ever looks at Jane. This idea terrifies. Yeah, but actually, if you look at what companies do they give documentation structure.
So there is an owner. Of the documentation that owner gives it an, a cadence of updates. The owner would invite the necessary people into participate and the owner will decide who the audiences is it internal project, internal company, internal team. Is it external? Is it customers? Is it the web.
And so by defining it and by, by giving an owner or giving an individual responsibility for documentation, you end up with a situation where I will write the important documents. I'll define the important processes and write the important documents associated with my process. And I will keep them up to date because they're important to me.
And I will look after them and I will [00:15:00] manage them and I will maintain them because they're important to me. But if you just ask somebody to write a document and dump it in a folder somewhere, and it has nothing to do with them, or really not, it's not important to their work, then it's frustrating. And it's not really that 
NA: [00:15:17] useful.
Keerstyn: [00:15:21] Thank you for that. That's a good point. I think you're spot on with that. And I really liked how you said almost like baby, the doc, like making, this is your child. Take ownership of it and run with it and make sure it's on the right path, but make sure. It's accessible and available to the people who actually need to be a part of it.
So I really liked that and I agree. Documentation is hard. So I, what'd you say about Having. So what we just talked about having the employee as a part of it, how do you consistently have documentation when the leadership team is trying to do trying to make some rules or new practices per se.
But the [00:16:00] employees are really like the heading it up. Would you say that the leadership team has to write it and then the employees report back? Or would you say the employees are more of that documentation and then they send it to a leadership team? Or what does that 
Brett: [00:16:12] look like? No, if it's important to the leadership team, and this is a process that the leadership team feel is important, then the leader, then whoever owns that process, defines the process and writes the documentation.
And it's, so let's say for example, the chief people officer defines the onboarding process or the recruitment process. That's something that they manage. It's something that they run. So they it's their process. And you can't really argue with that. If you're, a mid-level manager going  no, I don't want to do it like that.
Too bad. The company works. 
NA: [00:16:48] Yeah, 
Keerstyn: [00:16:48] exactly. They thank you for that. Cause I think that's good to clarify as I like, if it's your thing, you have to own it and rock on and keep on going and make sure that you have a solid foundation or neath. Yeah. [00:17:00] So what are those other two things then that you've seen companies really 
NA: [00:17:03] struggle with?
Brett: [00:17:04] Develop trust. Trust is an area that remote companies focus on and I bring up trust because you would think that trust is important to all businesses, but remote, most of the remote companies that I've interviewed or studied. Really over index on it. And to such an extent that they actually see transparency as an asset, because if we are transparent, then we have nothing to hide and most leaders are not transparent.
So going from a situation where I retain the information I need and feed it to the people who needed to being transparent is a really mind-bending process for most leaders. The thing about transparency is if you give transparency, you have trust. And if you have trust, you have psychological safety and Google did a two year research [00:18:00] study called project Aristotle on this.
They sliced and diced all their highest performing teams trying to work on what it was, what combination of things formed a higher performing team and the one consistent thing. With psychological safety where I can, I feel I can be myself. I can make a mistake and not be fired or have my head chopped off for it.
So building trust and building transparency results in psychological safety, which results in high performance. 
NA: [00:18:31] Yeah. 
Brett: [00:18:34] The third one is around. Transitioning to a synchronous communication because as human beings, we designed for synchronicity, we want this interaction. And even with some of the asynchronous tools that we've got like email, email is not really made for synchronicity.
We treat it like a synchronous tool because that's how we are the remote companies. [00:19:00] Pretty much all of them are, if it is a percentage, anything from a hundred percent. Asynchronous to 70, 80% asynchronous. So they don't hold meetings if they don't have to, they don't. No, they don't do video calls.
If they don't have to, they don't use email. They don't some don't like automatic don't use Slack because they don't want that synchronous situation. The synchronicity requires. Two things for you and I to be in, in this communicating like this in synchronicity, it requires presence. I had to be available at this time and it requires availability.
So presence and availability cost human time. I can't work now while we're doing this. Yeah. So if I have eight hours of meetings, I'm not working, I'm meeting, then I have to work [00:20:00] for another eight hours to catch up on what I didn't do. So that's why synchronicity is such a dangerous space to be. And that's why we are going to see a lot more burnout and a lot more anxiety and stress and mental health issues around the companies that don't well, 
NA: [00:20:16] that's really interesting.
Keerstyn: [00:20:18] I'm glad that you mentioned that because I think that's completely realistic. Everyone's had a meeting that could have been an email or everyone, those types of things where you sit there and you think, huh that's not really working as best as what we could make it. So thank you for that.
One question I did have is why do you think that leaders are not as transparent as. What they're assumed to be, you said transparency is an asset, not just a, this is something that we do.  Why 
NA: [00:20:46] do you think that's the case? 
Brett: [00:20:48] I think because we're not it's our leadership models have come from a hierarchical structure and that hierarchical structure was ultimately based [00:21:00] on who had information and who could pass that information down.
So the people on the factory floor did what they were told to do. And then the mid-level managers got enough information to manage them. And so on all the way down the pyramid and the people at the top had the most information. But now this has been flipped around because with the advent of digital communication and the internet, we all have lots of information at our disposal.
And so we can we can insured. Across the company, be able to take action and make decisions, which means we need as much information as possible, which means that we ideally don't need this middle management, these layers of middle management between us and the leadership team, which is the reason why over time, you've seen companies flatten because you then get immediate response times you get much quicker turnaround or much quicker reactivity or adaptability.
And. [00:22:00] We most of our leaders who are, I dunno, let's say 35 plus maybe 40 plus still have that hierarchical mindset. And we'd find companies in a hierarchical manner. And so we're not used to going, okay he has everything you need to know. He has the bank account, how much is in the bank accounts? He has the profit of our business, et cetera, et cetera, and explaining it in the way that people on the ground can go and say, okay, this is why I shouldn't do that.
This is why I should do this. And that transparency is doesn't come easily to us because we feel that it removes our seniority or it removes our ability to make decisions. And that's right. It should because the decisions are best made closest to the call. That's nice. Yeah. So that transparency, see, it doesn't come easily because of how we are designed in terms of power and leadership and [00:23:00] management.
And actually, if you look at how remote companies operate, they are typically much flatter and they are typically designed around individuals or groups of people on the ground, making decisions really quickly. That's interesting information. They need to make 
NA: [00:23:16] decisions. 
Keerstyn: [00:23:17] Yeah, that's really interesting.
Do you think that we're going to see adverse effects from flattening our companies? So obviously that hierarchy isn't nearly as large, what do you think are going to be the results of that going forward or in the 
NA: [00:23:31] next 20 
Brett: [00:23:32] years? I think if you look at how remote companies hire, they high foot for what they get lab, for example, hires for a manager of one.
Words, can you manage yourself? Okay. If you can manage yourself, then we trust you to get on with the job we give you. If you don't have the skills experience or knowledge, then we will give it to you. We will help you find it. And you [00:24:00] will have a manager who's there to support you. Is there to create the environment for you to succeed, not to tell you what to do.
Yeah. And so that flattening can work. If you hire the right people for that type of environment, or if you're transitioning to flat, you take away that middle management and just say to people, we know you have ideas, we know you have solutions. Tell us what they are. Let's solve this.
There are a number of companies that have been through this over the years where they've literally taken out the middle management and there's a guy named Ricardo Semler who took over his father's business. And he was pretty young. I can't remember now maybe 20, 21. And he shrunk, he eventually was ousted by, he was the owner of the business, the CEO, and he, I think he shrunk it down from something like 13 or 11 levels of management down to fall.
And ultimately, they said, Tim, we don't need you anymore. You can be the chairman. We're good. We don't need that extra [00:25:00] layer. And so they, and many businesses have been through this over the years. It's not easy for the middle managers to adapt. But these companies end up being much more adaptable and much more agile.
Ultimately if it's successful in that, if that process is successful, 
Keerstyn: [00:25:13] Yeah, that's really interesting because a lot of the time people think that they do need that middle manager and that's a really vital role. But obviously that's not necessarily the case and it goes by each company.
Obviously people have to be smart about what they're doing in their own organization, but. You bring up a good point. What are, is that something that people are afraid of though, is losing that middle manager and feeling as though that leadership top tier will be getting more work or like those type of things.
Do you think you're seeing that in the industry? 
Brett: [00:25:46] So if it depends on how many layers of middle management there are, but if you've got to stay any big organization and you have a lot of levels of middle management, then. The, I'm talking about, [00:26:00] I'm not talking about a 50% or a hundred percent company.
I'm thinking about the big organizations where you have three or four or five names, some sort of management in between the top and the bottom that you take up. Two of those nibbles of management, all you're doing is you're moving the steps and the time it takes for information to put, to process up and down the chain.
So the leadership team often don't get ended up, the top of the chain don't end up working harder and actually the bottom at the individuals below at the re at the bottom, don't end up working harder. They just end up working smarter because they have 
NA: [00:26:33] no information. 
Keerstyn: [00:26:34] Yeah. That's good to know.
That's really good to know. I'm glad that you said that And that obviously relates to that communication and making sure that is obviously solid and will go better moving forward. What are some tools that you would recommend companies to use to have a synchronous communication going forward?
Or how do you start going in that right 
NA: [00:26:55] direction? 
Brett: [00:26:56] So there are a bunch of tools and [00:27:00] solutions that different companies use, but it really depends on what type of company you are. If you are a knowledge working company, or if you're a manufacturing company, there, there are different solutions.
But if you think about the way to think about it is how can we move away from. Typically now previously everything being synchronous. In other words, face-to-face meetings calls responding immediately to email or Slack, et cetera, et cetera. How do we move from that situation? So now doing things using semi synchronous technologies, such as project management or forums or Google docs type where you can work on things asynchronicity over time and moving more towards companies, having handbooks or company manuals where all processes and all documents are in one place.
There's a single source of truth for all the documentation. So how do we move from low permanence [00:28:00] communication to hive high permanence communication? In other words, if I call somebody, unless I, unless somebody takes notes and shares it with the entire company, that's a low permanence because the call is gone.
But if I send somebody a message that is a, an email that they don't have to respond to in the next. Immediately or in the next two days, that email is an asynchronous tool where the documentation associated with that email is hype them. And if we start putting more and more information into our company, handbooks about our processes and our documentation, that becomes high permanence data.
The thought process of how do we move from low permanence synchronous. Communication to hype permanence, asynchronous communication. What tools can we use and what systems can we put in place? So for example, if you hold meetings, And you, and what you typically [00:29:00] happen is everybody jumps onto the zoom call and there is a very poorly written agenda and there is no pre documentation, or pre-work done put in some pre-work into the meeting.
In other words, before the meeting, you all have to have read this documentation and you need to answer these five questions. And so you at least know that people have thought about it. People have answered the questions and they're the meeting is at least two steps forward. By the time you start the meeting and then with regards to meetings, add an element of follow-up and execution against them.
Because if you think about it, the meet, the meeting now happens in a vacuum. Unless you share to the people impacted on that meeting, what needs to happen next? So creating a process for pre-work agenda, working documents, et cetera, et cetera, creating that process. And then post-meeting delivery on that is really,  [00:30:00] it's a vital element of what companies need to do.
Keerstyn: [00:30:04] Yeah, thank you for that clarification. Cause I think it's good to take those baby steps and say, okay, so how can we make this slightly better? How, because change is really difficult on people and just going to an employee handbook would be extremely difficult for some people. Some people need that face to face interaction.
So how do we have a meeting? That's a bit more A little more documented or just making sure that everyone's on the same page or being slightly more prepared. Although some people might think it's this massive hurdle that you have to get over it truly isn't, it's actually making your time spent much more valuable.
I think that's good that you mentioned those middle steps to get to that eventually. What we would call like a company handbook or a source of truth, one source of truth. Thank you for that was really helpful. And I think people will value that significantly. Do you want to talk a little bit about your books and what they're about and give a highlight over those that people would be interested in 
NA: [00:30:58] reading 
Brett: [00:30:58] those?
[00:31:00] Sure. Thanks. , first book is called culture decks, decoded, and. Basically, I was inspired by Reed Hastings original culture deck for Netflix. This if you're, if you, if your audience haven't read this, I highly recommend it. It's a Reed Hastings was onboarding a lot of people weekend and week out.
And as part of that onboarding, he would do a presentation, which was a hundred and twenty-five pages basically explaining the culture of the business. This is so we are a sports team. If you're not performing at excellent level, we will bench, you will work on you. If you don't get back onto excellence, we will find some of the other things in this, in the slide deck,  we advise you to go and interview.
 At competitors for the same role. And if you work more in the same role, come and talk to us and we'll pay you, they pay top dollar. Yeah. A number of things in the slide deck that were really interesting and inspiring for me. [00:32:00] And I thought, okay let me look at that. As I looked at a sauna, I looked at LinkedIn, I looked at HubSpot hoot suite valve, and I realized that there was a S it was a framework to these decks.
But you couldn't really take one. They can copy it because that would be copying somebody else's culture and that doesn't work like that. You can't copy another company's culture. Your culture is unique to you. So what I did is I took the best slides from the dicks and I created a framework. Around how to think about writing your own culture deck from vision, mission values all the way through to diversity inclusion recruitment, transparency dealing with failure, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And so it's it's a really fun book. It's got an image and my comments as a subject matter experts or a candidates, potential candidates to your company, what Hastings eventually did. So you got so sick and tired of presenting this to people who are hired, but then 50% of those people would leave [00:33:00] after he presented the culture that you decided I'm going to put it online and he put it on on SlideShare and they, it's been written now.
It probably over 20 million times, I haven't checked recently, but it's been downloaded and viewed 20 million times. My second book is called own your culture. How to define embed and manage your company culture. And this really is a, I took the 50 interviews I did, and I crafted a basically how to go through the stages of building a culture from.
Your mission, your vision, your values, or your all the way through to values-based recruitment, onboarding probation, periods, dealing with bad hires or brilliant jerks how to embed your culture. And what I did is I took all the examples of the interviews I'd done and use these actual examples in the book.
So if you can turn to any page and most likely find an example of what a company is doing. To hire in [00:34:00] a remote environment or to do employee reviews or to deal with brilliant jerks and its actual company. Examples of the companies I've interviewed. 
Keerstyn: [00:34:12] Interesting. That's awesome. I'm really glad that you mentioned those books.
I think that both are valuable. I'm actually going to go look at them now. Cause I think this sounds awesome. I really liked it if the idea of having the deck though, and it's almost like the best practice deck for Like making sure that your culture is like number one to these people. So I'm going to go look at them and I think that other listeners should go listen, look, or listen to them as well.
So yeah. Thank you for sharing those. So Brett, is there any other places that people can find you as 
Brett: [00:34:42] well? Yeah, so people can find me on www dot culture, G E N e.ai. And you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Twitter. I love spending time talking to people so [00:35:00] about their culture. So if people want to talk to me about their culture, More than happy to, my email is Brett at culture, gene.ai, more than happy to have a chat and just shoot the breeze.
I'm a student of the subject and just love to learn about what people are doing and how they're doing 
NA: [00:35:16] it. 
Keerstyn: [00:35:16] Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I obviously have learned a ton and we'll be going to a research more about culture. But I would encourage others to do so as well.
And come talk to you if they see 
NA: [00:35:30] value, 
Brett: [00:35:32] Kristen. Thanks very much. I've enjoyed it. And it's been a pleasure. 
Keerstyn: [00:35:35] Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. 

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